Linus on 02/02/2003:

The fact that you are bothered by how little it affected you mean you're only desensitised.

I think I sense a growing tendency to deal with tragedies like this as just another part of life, as something that "will happen" sometimes. They shouldn't be that way. They should always suck, they should always be horrible and hard on all those affected. It's not healthy to take them in stride.

Steve on 02/02/2003:

Unlike 9/11, the people who were involved knew the dangers that were involved.

True, more people die everyday than what happend saturday.

Yet, when I was watching CNN just 2 hours after it happened they started showing interviews of the astronauts that just died mere hours before. That is when I felt it.

If you just take everything as comparisons and statistics then it is easy to not have a heart. You don't see the people behind your logic. At the same time if you take everything to heart you are going to live in constant sadness.

n3verm0re on 02/03/2003:

Now it's my turn to clarify. I believe that any death is a tragedy, regardless of whether it's accidental, intentional, or even (arguably) justifiable. Perhaps I misunderstood you, so I'll refocus my statement. I recognize that a personal loss, as in a break up, will affect one a great deal more than the abstract notion of an unknown person (or even several thousand) dying. That's reasonable and an understandably apathetic reaction. However, to speak of both and claim that the personal loss is somehow "greater" is to be, well, fucked up. This isn't a pissing contest. It isn't about placing tragedies on a scale. It's about recognizing the difference between one sort of a loss and another. Lucky for me, I'm not a self-prescribed beneficiary of man, and I don't care to defend my position or even validate it. I'm not about to launch into a philosophical debate about the relevance of life/death or any sort of existential gobbledygook. You're free to feel however you choose, just as I'm free to believe that your statement was balderdash. Good day!

n3verm0re on 02/03/2003:

Blast, one more clarification.

"But for you to consider it to be fucked up for me to make the choice of greaving for a lost loved one as opposed to people I don't know on TV..."

I'll repeat myself. No one asked you grieve. My only complaint is that your comment trivialized death.

Tarsh on 02/03/2003:

Sadly, it is a way people have become used to dealing with things; to shut off.

David on 02/03/2003:

I think it makes a lot of sense to become used to disasters like 9/11 or the Columbia accident.

I think I payed the same attention to 9/11 (and Columbia) as I did a movie or a TV series. It all seemed like a bad movie. It was cheesy at times to watch. The media over dramatized it. Schindler's List was a tear jerker, but this? I don't know. It happened for real and in my lifetime. But, the Holocaust 'happened' just like 9/11 'happened'. And I experienced both of them in about the same way - through media. I've even met some Holocaust survivors. For me these events are no worse than leaving 6th grade for middle school or breaking up with a girlfriend - things that are closer to my heart, I guess. I guess I'm asking: How detached from the situation do we have to be to feel 'okay' or 'apathetic' towards it? I think we should get the choice whether or not to greave. And then if we are judged by that, so be it.

n3verm0re on 02/03/2003:

"For me these events are no worse than leaving 6th grade for middle school or breaking up with a girlfriend." Geez. As you anticipated, you've just been judged. No one said that you had to grieve, but trivializing real tragedies (for instance, ones that involve death) by equating them with your forlorn feelings about your childhood or an ended relationship.. man, that's just fucked up.

David on 02/03/2003:

See, that's kind of what I was trying to get at. I know no one said I had to greave. I wanted to say that I had the choice, because Garrett said he was unsure if he was 'being a bad person' by not feeling so bad for 'real tragedies'. So in my opinion, he should have the choice. But for you to consider it to be fucked up for me to make the choice of greaving for a lost loved one as opposed to people I don't know on TV - it goes against my opinion of being able to choose my reason for greaving.

Rather than telling me I'm fucked up. Tell me why 'you' think the tragedies were so fucking bad. What... Mass quantities? Pride stricken America? Did you have someone die that was close to you? Whatever it is, I guess I don't see a good reason 'for me'. And if you say there is, then what is it? I guess I'm talking to 'evermore'.

And normally, feelings of greavence don't adhere to reason. It just occurs. So, I dunno, if I'm wrong - you can make it happen. Maybe you can convince me that it's worse than I think it is.

David on 02/03/2003:

I should clarify:

By saying 9/11 seemed no worse than a break up to me meant that it (the break up) hit me more - emotionally. The size of the disasters we're talking about have a much larger area of effect for emotional trauma, but I wasn't one of those people - traumatized.

Lots of little american flags and stickers were on cars after 9/11, and that kind of pissed me off. I didn't know why everyone had to be involved. They were yelling 'Kill Bin Ladin' (or whatever) on the street corners, with signs. It was those people scared me more than anything.

It's different when the hatred is on your doorstep. It's even scarier to me that these protesters were bringing a nightmare off of TV news - straight into my city.

'That' is a good reason to have an emotional attachment. Otherwise, you have to start choosing how much of the news and media you are willing to absorb. I choose not to watch TV - so most times I'm out of the loop on things like 'space shuttles blowing up'. I guess that's good for me. I have room to worry about my career, or something.

Steve on 02/03/2003:

There is a lot of clarification going on here.

I'm tired of everyone trying to compare the destruction of the Columbia to 9/11, the Holocaust, or breaking up with their 6th grade girlfriend.

9/11 and the Holocaust were a different type of tragedy than Columbia. They were human against human. The low that a human can sink to is unlimited. So, in a tragedy like these there are other emotions that make it greater in the mind; anger, shock, and disbelief.

In the case of Columbia there is no sinister plot, no anger, and no human behind it. At the same time, the crew knew the dangers. Humans can change or be killed. The Laws of Physics can't.

Bravery has to be mentioned. They knew their lives could be lost, and they risked theirs for the simple quest for knowledge and exploration.

With all the pure shit that goes on in this world, their dreams - and many others - were above all of it. They weren't out for anything but for the most peaceful human traits that can be found.

I think it's a tragedy because something pure in human spirit was lost. When you compare it to 9/11, you are comparing opposite ends of the spectrum that cannot be compared.

Linus on 02/03/2003:

David, ever heard of "Do not send to know for whom the bell tolls ... ?" I think that phrase sums up my feelings on all sadness and tragedy, whether or not it involves death. The bell always tolls for thee, because the more you strip away the bullshit that's built into people by society, the more everyone's exactly the same.

Of course, you can't choose what affects you emotionally. Obviously things closer to home will have a greater emotional impact, but recognising and acknowledging the emotional impact that a more distant event has on others is the least you can do, regardless of whether you personally felt the loss.

David on 02/03/2003:

Man, Steve, you get tired of stuff real fast. But, I agree with you. I think we cannot compare the tragedies, but as 'nevermore' hinted - I think we can put them all under the catagory of catastrophic deaths.

All I was really saying is that even though the big tragedies are... bigger. A small tragedy, close to home, can affect (effect?) a person - more emotionally. To 'understand' the events as other people do, is different than feeling remorse. And I admit - it trivializes the death of thousands, but only when I'm reducing it to 'my' feelings and my own perspective. (Which doesn't span that far out. I don't trivialize other people's feelings. I just haven't talked to people involved. When I think bigger, I can understand why people are affected so much. So maybe that's it. It just feels like Columbia might as well been on the other side of the world, because the deaths and the accident are just so far from my mind.

Garrett, sorry, I misspoke about your feelings about 9/11. I don't even know them.

David on 02/03/2003:

Maybe it's just because I'm affected more by a story than I am just hearing that 'a shuttle crashed'. I just heard something that one of the astronauts said while they were in space. Last words. A good story is always better than just hearing about it from word of mouth.

scott on 02/03/2003:

I can see clearly now the rain is gone....