Very Important Message
posted on april 14, 2005, tag: filmmaking
Don't ever. EVER. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, everevereverevereverever, ever! EVER EVER EVER, ever... ever... EVEREVEREVEREVER, ever. EVER trust Macromedia or ColdFusion to handle something important. EVER. I can't make that clear enough. If you have an important web application, never trust your business to ColdFusion. It's a mistake. I promise you.
Last night, at about 9PM, the Amazon.com Short Film Competition registration site which is handled and hosted by Macromedia crashed. It was down for over 5 hours. Every time it came back up, it crashed. This is the quality that is ColdFusion. Consider this proof of concept: Macromedia has proven that ColdFusion is ineffective at handling large server loads and spikes.
We managed to get a "successful upload" message at around 1:30AM. Who knows if the film actually got entered. I'm waiting for a call back from the TriBeCa Film Festival about the matter. What a horribly anticlimactic end to such a great 4 weeks of working on this film.
But no matter. The film turned out really well and we're excited to see it online in the near future. We'll also be creating a special DVD and hopefully entering it into some festivals. More coming soon.
Damn you Macromedia. I want those 5 hours back.
Update: Our film made it into the competition and is now available for viewing. Read more about it.
Update Two: Shawn has posted about the horrible experience this contest has been thanks to Amazon and Macromedia: Amazon Is Off To a Shaky Start.
Comments
There are 22 comments, comments are closed
S. A. Miller on 04/19/2005:
Could not connect to JRun server!
You must not frequent MetaFilter. The whole site runs on CF, and JRun is notorious.
Sapphireblue on 04/20/2005:
Hm. Would love to read what Shawn has to say, but get a MySQL connection error trying to click through. Isn't it ironic... don't you think?
KmaX on 04/21/2005:
I am a coldfusion developer and i earn a living exclusively programming with MM tools and server platform.
This rant toward MM or coldfusion is unjustified, you don't have any idea what the bug is even with a simplistic "could not connect to Jrun" message.
It could be 1 million things other than MM code that would lead to such a message.
Maybe you should blame SUN ? after all, cf is powered by J2EE.... :p
Garrett on 04/21/2005:
Actually, "KmaX," I develop in ColdFusion every day. The rant is not unjustified and I do have an idea what the bug is.
Blaming Sun in this case is like blaming Microsoft when a 3rd-party app crashes.
Michael Dinowitz on 04/22/2005:
I've run a heavily hit site for a loooong time and let me tell you, ColdFusion can handle it. OK, maybe I write better code. Maybe I've been using it longer and know all the tricks. Maybe I'm just lucky, but bottom line is that I KNOW CF can handle it and I trust Macromedia on this.
Raymond Camden on 04/22/2005:
So let me get this straight. You went to a CF site that crashed, and now you think CF can't handle load? That's utter crap. I've seen plenty of sites crash. 99% of the time it isn't the backend technology but either the code or the server setup. Like Michael, I've run numerous CF sites on very high traffic servers and have had no problems at all.
Brian Kotek on 04/22/2005:
Or better yet, by this logic I should NEVER EVER EVER EVER trust ANY application server for anything important. PHP sites crash. ASP.NET sites crash. JSP sites crash.
This person is simply displaying how little they actually understand about how a web application works.
The odds are overwhelmingly that the problem is in the code or in the server configuration, not the ColdFusion application server itself.
Garrett on 04/22/2005:
It's surprising that it took nearly a full week for the CF people to start telling me I'm crazy. I was expecting you, just faster.
None the less: a lot of people are blaming poor design and coding for this issue. That's probably part of the problem, yes. But let's set a few things straight:
- This was not just some random company hosting the server. It was MACROMEDIA.
- It was not some random person installing and configuring ColdFusion and JRun on that server. It was MACROMEDIA.
- It was not a third party developer writing the code and testing it. It was MACROMEDIA.
If MACROMEDIA, the COMPANY THAT MAKES COLDFUSION, cannot set up a server correctly, then maybe the problem isn't setting up the server, but the server setup itself?
The other common reaction here is that other servers crash too. That's a great response, guys. Just because other servers crash doesn't make it okay for ColdFusion servers to crash. The idea isn't to strive for mediocrity or being the same as everyone else. The goal is to use better software, write better code, be better than the competition. What you're saying is that ColdFusion is not better than the competition, and that's normal. Well, sucks to normal—I don't like it.
Raymond Camden on 04/22/2005:
Garret:
A response to your first paragraph: I've seen the MS site crash as well. It doesn't make it right - but it certainly doesn't mean MS will always crash. I've seen errors on very large companies. Does that mean I do not trust the company? No - it just means that they missed something. While we should strive for perfection, I have rarely seen it.
A response to your second paragraph. I would like for you to show me software that doesn't crash... significant software, not Notepad.exe. As I said above, we should strive to write the best software, but humans are not perfect. The gist of this post to me was - Since CF crashes on one server, it isn't good. Do you still believe that? I do believe CF is better than .Net and PHP - yet CF is not perfect. No language is.
max on 04/22/2005:
Could you provide us with the link to the registration page?
cantrell on 04/22/2005:
Hi, Garret. I believe this application is being handled by contractors, not by Macromedia directly, though I don't know the details. Anyway, macromedia.com seems to run pretty well on ColdFusion and JRun, and it's a pretty high-traffic site. I'm guessing something is amiss with the server configuration or the code rather than with the entire platform. I'm sorry you had such a negative experience, though, and I'm glad to see your film was finally uploaded.
Christian
Boyzoid on 04/22/2005:
I had a camera once, and the film didn't load right one time...so I threw the camera away, and told everyone I knew not to use that particular brand of camera because the film doesn't load properly. Really, I swear.
See what happens if we follow your logic into other areas?
Alex Hubner on 04/22/2005:
Even if the code is ok and the application is running smooth, if the infra-estrutucture is not ready to support additional traffic generated by some reason (a close date for submission, website roll-out, etc) there's no magic: the server will crash. It's simple like: you can't put 150 persons inside a car. It doesn't matter if it's a beatifull Ferrari with lots of horse power, it simple doesn't fit and you'll need at least 30 ferraris to do the same. Simple that. You should blame Amazon, not ColdFusion or Macromedia. Who lets a server been down for 5 hours and don't do anything??? I doubt is somebody from Macromedia, can you prove it?
Just to mention one website/webapp appart from the Macromedia.com and others mentioned here. This one handles A LOT of traffic and (cof, cof) uses ColdFusion:
MySpace.com, is the SEVENTH (you can count on your fingers and name the 6th, 5th and so forth) most visit domain in the entire web. And it's not me that is saying it - http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050314/lam090_2.html, and it simple works (with a modest configuration in terms and comparisson to others in the same situation).
For a single bad story like yours, there are at least 10 succesfull ones with ColdFusion. Get the facts and avoid talking about something you apparentely don't know. Otherwise show some data to prove that ColdFusion is crappy.
Garrett on 04/22/2005:
max: The form is no longer online. It used to be linked from here: http://amazonshortfilm.com/.
Cantrell: Why would Macromedia outsource this to contractors? If they did, it was a terrible mistake, obviously. I don't understand why Macromedia would partner with Amazon.com and the Tribeca Film Festival and then outsource the server setup to a contractor. This situation was obviously made much worse due to horrible planning on the part of both Amazon and Macromedia.
I hope you see the film too!
Garrett on 04/22/2005:
I know this will probably anger everyone even more, but it's worth mentioning that the people who responded most angrily or loudly to this are people who have a seemingly above average love for ColdFusion.
Take for instance Raymond, who has the CF logo in the header of his weblog. Or Alex, whose URL is cfgigolo.com. Michael runs HouseOfFusion, a site dedicated to developing in CF.
I know I've angered you guys. I knew when I posted this entry that it would immediately anger a group of people just like you. For that, I apologize. I'm sure it felt like a cheap shot. It wasn't supposed to be.
The truth of the matter is, Macromedia used ColdFusion for this application and the application was a resounding failure. That fact cannot be ignored.
In the end, our film made it into the competition and that's all that really matters to us. But at 1AM after 4 hours of that server being down then going up and down over and over, we were very angry. There were lots of people who didn't get their films in at all because of this server issue.
I'm being smeared all over the ColdFusion weblogs right now, and that's the price I have to pay. Meanwhile, I'm writing ColdFusion code here at work right now, so it's a little bittersweet.
max on 04/22/2005:
I'm not sure why Macromedia would have outsourced it. I'm not sure if it's really a problem with CF itself (as opposed to human error running the server, writing the code, etc). But I am sure it is certainly embarassing for Macromedia. They partner with a big web leader like Amazon, notify people that Macromedia is hosting the site and then have it all fall apart for hours.
Alex Hubner on 04/22/2005:
Just wondering: why do you use and code in ColdFusion if you don't trust it?
Seriously, we all love CF and it doesn't change anything since we've made clear and true statements (including examples). CF lovers are only using the same level of arrogance and irony you did in the original post. What's wrong with that?
Let's continue, please... I love flame baits... ;-)
BTW: congrats for the great movie. Very nice, really.
Garrett on 04/22/2005:
I've actually worked at two companies (this is the second) who've used ColdFusion. It's not necessarily by choice, it just so happened in these two cases that the money was good and the people were nice. I would prefer not to write ColdFusion, but it's currently paying the bills. It's worth mentioning that I also use ASP, PHP, Perl, XML, etc, etc.
Oh, you saw the movie? That's great! So far only about 4 people have, so I'm excited you saw it.
Also, about the "level of arrogance and irony"—I did not intend arrogance, and, well, irony is never intended, I guess. I meant to post in the original entry that I used ColdFusion, but I forgot. I don't know that it's necessarily ironic—I think it at least makes it a little more acceptable for me to make blanket statements since at least I use CF. =)
I am interested to hear more from the guys at Macromedia on this matter...
Raymond Camden on 04/22/2005:
Garrret: Your clarifications do make more sense - but you do have to admit that your original post did go too far. You blamed the entire language for one bad implementation of it. Yes, the authors of CF (or in this case, contractors for the authors) were to blame - but it doesn't mean the language can't be trusted.
Raymond Camden on 04/22/2005:
Ack - and forgive me for mispelling your name all the time.
Garrett on 04/22/2005:
Yes, I will admit, it was a blanket statement. Although I have had my share of ColdFusion issues before this public display.
About the misspellings: Don't ever. EVER. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, everevereverevereverever, ever! EVER EVER EVER, ever... ever... EVEREVEREVEREVER, ever. EVER trust Raymond Camden to spell your name. EVER. I can't make that clear enough. If you have a name, never trust it to Raymond Camden. It's a mistake. I promise you.
Peter Farrell on 04/22/2005:
I'm not getting into which technology is better debate because that could be debated forever. However, I wanted to remind about sites that get slashdotted - I've seen numerous sites go down just because of that - php, html, CF, asp, etc.
I have issue with Windows XP - doesn't mean I going to be able to convince my company to switch to Mac...
Also, FYI - I've even gotten notepad to crash on me - it used all the time on win98se.
Technology is technology - things go wrong and they always will. Personally, I think your original post went past the rant stage - actually, I'd be a bit embarassed if I wrote something like that.
Anyways, I don't know why I went through all the trouble to get a login just to leave a message like this...